Reasons for breaking the law at Faslane
Sitting in a police cell on a concrete slab (albeit topped by a plastic-covered "mattress"), as I was on October 1, at least allows some pause for thought.
The WPC who had arrested me at Faslane is a community police officer in Govanhill, and I told her that some of us have real questions about taking valuable police resources away from areas where they are much needed. We also have concerns about the massive amount of money spent:
£6m to police the year-long Faslane 365 campaign.
These reservations have to be taken seriously and considered with respect. I have broken the law
over these issues on a number of occasions, never lightly, and mainly for two reasons.
First, I am a mother and grandmother, and I would be failing my family and future generations if I did not protest against the abomination of Trident which is capable of destroying most of the northern hemisphere in 10 minutes.
Secondly, I used to work alongside families living in poverty in Glasgow - many of whom I am privileged to call my friends. I would be failing them if I did not protest against this obscene expenditure.
Molly Harvey,
501 Shields Road, Glasgow.
It was a felicitous juxtaposition (The Herald, October 2), having the piece on Faslane 365 facing the picture of the celebrations of Gandhi's life in India. The non-violent principles of Gandhi and Martin Luther King are easy to laud and celebrate, when viewed from afar in a foreign country, but when applied at home in Britain, it is, I fear, a different story.
It must have been really disruptive of local traffic when one million black civil rights protesters marched on Washington DC. The inconveniences to the good burgers of Helensburgh that councillor George Freeman complains about seem pretty trivial in comparison. Like Alexander McKay, he seems unwilling to look at the bigger picture, and unable to grasp the sheer immensity of the moral issues involved.
When I attended the Iona Community service at the base on Monday, I was reminded of words from the community liturgy: "If Christ's disciples keep silent, these stones will shout aloud." The very hills seem to cry out a silent howl of anguish at the unimaginable evil being planned here at Faslane.
Faslane 365 has been a model campaign in terms of its fidelity to the principle of non-violence, and Strathclyde Police have responded in a uniquely professional and courteous fashion. We have attempted to bring about awareness of the the utter evil - and the blatant illegality - of the UK government's deployment of nuclear WMD here in Scotland.
If our actions have done nothing else, I hope that we have caused some people to ask themselves why so many good law-abiding folk from the churches and the general community are driven to take this action.
I can assure Councillor Freeman and his friends that we are not going to go away. We will continue to act until Trident sails down the Clyde to the breakers' yard.
Brian M Quail,
2 Hyndland Avenue, Glasgow.
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Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 10:02pm Wed 3 Oct 07
Given the unspeakable evil that is Trident, - and there is no other word for it - regardless of where it is stationed, can Councillor Freeman really think of nothing more to complain about than disruption to traffic?
Given the unspeakable evil that is Trident, - and there is no other word for it - regardless of where it is stationed, can Councillor Freeman really think of nothing more to complain about than disruption to traffic?
Posted by: GLASWEGIAN, GLASGOW on 10:08pm Wed 3 Oct 07
Splendid post, Brian Quail! Congratulations. Every right-thinking Scot must surely agree with you. If not, they have been brainwashed by the thought police of the two main UK political parties, all the members of which should hang their heads in shame.
Trident and all nuclear weapons are an obscenity, and abomination, and worst of all a total irrelevance. It amazes me that so many presumabbly intelligent people cannot see this for themselves.
Using nuclear weapons to "Defend Britain" will inevitably lead to the destruction of the whole of planet earth. Is that really worth £75billion of taxpayers' money? But which party do those millions who agree with this vot for in the forthcoming election?
Splendid post, Brian Quail! Congratulations. Every right-thinking Scot must surely agree with you. If not, they have been brainwashed by the thought police of the two main UK political parties, all the members of which should hang their heads in shame.
Trident and all nuclear weapons are an obscenity, and abomination, and worst of all a total irrelevance. It amazes me that so many presumabbly intelligent people cannot see this for themselves.
Using nuclear weapons to "Defend Britain" will inevitably lead to the destruction of the whole of planet earth. Is that really worth £75billion of taxpayers' money? But which party do those millions who agree with this vot for in the forthcoming election?
Posted by: will on 11:32pm Wed 3 Oct 07
It is folk like Molly Harvey and Brian Quail that restore my faith in humanity. I await the insults towards them though from the usual corner...
It is folk like Molly Harvey and Brian Quail that restore my faith in humanity. I await the insults towards them though from the usual corner...
Posted by: Seannair, Oban on 12:24am Thu 4 Oct 07
I have no doubt that the monks demonstrating in Rangoon and Mandalay were also disrupting the flow of traffic .
Shocking is it not?
Could they too have been charged with Breach of the Peace?
It would be interesting if the Leader of the Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament could apply the principles that she learned while staying "above the shop" in the Iona Community in Glasgow to her present apparent support of the Trident weapons system. These could be an interesting counterpoint to what young Gordon took in by osmosis from his manse upbringing that leads him to be such an enthusiastic supporter of our weapons of mass destruction.
I have no doubt that the monks demonstrating in Rangoon and Mandalay were also disrupting the flow of traffic .
Shocking is it not?
Could they too have been charged with Breach of the Peace?
It would be interesting if the Leader of the Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament could apply the principles that she learned while staying "above the shop" in the Iona Community in Glasgow to her present apparent support of the Trident weapons system. These could be an interesting counterpoint to what young Gordon took in by osmosis from his manse upbringing that leads him to be such an enthusiastic supporter of our weapons of mass destruction.
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 12:54am Thu 4 Oct 07
Seannair,
Given GB is so fond of wearing his "son of the manse" heart on his sleeve, I do indeed think we deserve to know how he squares these sentiments with his commitment to Trident. If he has lost touch with current CofS thinking on the matter, I can only recommend he have a word with our local minister on the subject. Let's just say, he wouldn't be too bothered about disrupting the traffic! Perhaps it would be good for Gordon to revisit his roots!
Seannair,
Given GB is so fond of wearing his "son of the manse" heart on his sleeve, I do indeed think we deserve to know how he squares these sentiments with his commitment to Trident. If he has lost touch with current CofS thinking on the matter, I can only recommend he have a word with our local minister on the subject. Let's just say, he wouldn't be too bothered about disrupting the traffic! Perhaps it would be good for Gordon to revisit his roots!
Posted by: Stuart, West Lothian on 8:18am Thu 4 Oct 07
I could not agree more with all the above. It is indeed both irresponsible & utterly indefensible the whole rational behind the Trident system. What is a country like Britain, who cannot feed itself, doing even thinking along the lines of replacing this system. What I would really wish to ask, is taking to the streets in a village the right way of doing things. The not in our backyard attitude sounds like nimbyism, perhaps the wrong message to send out. Not about the weapons, but where they are sighted?
Yes Alistair it would do Gordon to visit his roots, he might find himself out of a job, if he remains on this broad road.
I could not agree more with all the above. It is indeed both irresponsible & utterly indefensible the whole rational behind the Trident system. What is a country like Britain, who cannot feed itself, doing even thinking along the lines of replacing this system. What I would really wish to ask, is taking to the streets in a village the right way of doing things. The not in our backyard attitude sounds like nimbyism, perhaps the wrong message to send out. Not about the weapons, but where they are sighted?
Yes Alistair it would do Gordon to visit his roots, he might find himself out of a job, if he remains on this broad road.
Posted by: Bob Floyd, Helensburgh on 10:30am Thu 4 Oct 07
There is a difference between blocking the traffic and putting a community (the Rosneath peninsula) under siege in order to score points for self-righteousness. I'm not sure if those protestors advocating class war are exactly proponents of peace anyway. Remember the KGB referred to western peace groups as useful idiots and consider the incursions by Russian nuclear capable bombers into British airspace this summer.
In a highly publicised campaign the number of protestors never reached 10% of the work force at Faslane so perhaps the rights of the majority to get to work and pay their taxes could be given more regard.
There is a difference between blocking the traffic and putting a community (the Rosneath peninsula) under siege in order to score points for self-righteousness. I'm not sure if those protestors advocating class war are exactly proponents of peace anyway. Remember the KGB referred to western peace groups as useful idiots and consider the incursions by Russian nuclear capable bombers into British airspace this summer.
In a highly publicised campaign the number of protestors never reached 10% of the work force at Faslane so perhaps the rights of the majority to get to work and pay their taxes could be given more regard.
Posted by: Alibi on 12:02pm Thu 4 Oct 07
Bob Floyd - I think perhaps you are getting your priorities wrong. Yes, it's all about getting people to pay taxes; says it all really. Taxes that those at the topof the Labour Party are happy to squander on nuclear weapons. I'm no leftie by any means, but I am in complete agreement with the need for Scotland to rid itself of, and disassociate itself from, nuclear weapons.
Bob Floyd - I think perhaps you are getting your priorities wrong. Yes, it's all about getting people to pay taxes; says it all really. Taxes that those at the topof the Labour Party are happy to squander on nuclear weapons. I'm no leftie by any means, but I am in complete agreement with the need for Scotland to rid itself of, and disassociate itself from, nuclear weapons.
Posted by: notwill, planet sane on 1:24pm Thu 4 Oct 07
Mr Quail - Trident does not sail - the boats that carry it do...
Mr Quail - Trident does not sail - the boats that carry it do...
Posted by: Economic Migrant, Darkest Oxfordshire on 2:00pm Thu 4 Oct 07
[quote]consider the incursions by Russian nuclear capable bombers into British airspace this summer.[/quote]
There have been no incursions by Russian nuclear capable bombers or any other Russian planes into British airspace. There have been flights of Russian reconnaissance planes over international waters but they have been hundreds of miles from British airspace.
consider the incursions by Russian nuclear capable bombers into British airspace this summer.
There have been no incursions by Russian nuclear capable bombers or any other Russian planes into British airspace. There have been flights of Russian reconnaissance planes over international waters but they have been hundreds of miles from British airspace.
Posted by: Jayne, Glasgow on 2:18pm Thu 4 Oct 07
This ongoing debate shows just how misguided and naive the anti-Trident lobby can be. Alas we do not live in an ideal world where everyone loveth his neighbour and we cannot, more than ever, assume that other nations will treat us reciprocal goodwill. Perhaps we have only ourselves to blame for this state of affairs but let's start living with the realities of life and not in some fantasy land. Despite Mr Salmond's posturing about removing nuclear weapons from Scottish soil, rest assured that this will not happen. Like many people who have remained silent during the debacle of Faslane 365 (and all you achieved was to disrupt the lives of people in and around Helensburgh - how proud you must be to make children late for their exams), I am delighted to see that the Government won the Commons debate and that Trident will be renewed. We should never rely on the US or any other nation to protect our shores and it is entirely appropriate that we have our own national deterrent.
This ongoing debate shows just how misguided and naive the anti-Trident lobby can be. Alas we do not live in an ideal world where everyone loveth his neighbour and we cannot, more than ever, assume that other nations will treat us reciprocal goodwill. Perhaps we have only ourselves to blame for this state of affairs but let's start living with the realities of life and not in some fantasy land. Despite Mr Salmond's posturing about removing nuclear weapons from Scottish soil, rest assured that this will not happen. Like many people who have remained silent during the debacle of Faslane 365 (and all you achieved was to disrupt the lives of people in and around Helensburgh - how proud you must be to make children late for their exams), I am delighted to see that the Government won the Commons debate and that Trident will be renewed. We should never rely on the US or any other nation to protect our shores and it is entirely appropriate that we have our own national deterrent.
Posted by: Seannair, Oban on 3:23pm Thu 4 Oct 07
I fell sure that Jayne may discover that our "independent" nuclear deterrent is entirely dependent upon the USof A who hold the keys and the codes for it.
One reason for breaking clear from the stranglehold of Westminster is so that decisions affecting Scotland can be taken here in Scotland in the interests of Scotland and not be imposed on us by others.I find it curious that Jayne can extol the virtues of a mythical British independence but clearly does not think that is a condition that Scots should seek.
I fell sure that Jayne may discover that our "independent" nuclear deterrent is entirely dependent upon the USof A who hold the keys and the codes for it.
One reason for breaking clear from the stranglehold of Westminster is so that decisions affecting Scotland can be taken here in Scotland in the interests of Scotland and not be imposed on us by others.I find it curious that Jayne can extol the virtues of a mythical British independence but clearly does not think that is a condition that Scots should seek.
Posted by: Mbawsa Ritchie, Dumbarton on 4:53pm Thu 4 Oct 07
The difference between the monks of Rangoon and the protestors at Faslane is the monks have full CIA backing and resources. The Faslane protestors don't.
Oh and Jayne, Glasgow -- Get real ya muppet. If you think there is anything "independent" about the UK nuclear deterrent, I have some real estate on Mars I want to sell you.
The difference between the monks of Rangoon and the protestors at Faslane is the monks have full CIA backing and resources. The Faslane protestors don't.
Oh and Jayne, Glasgow -- Get real ya muppet. If you think there is anything "independent" about the UK nuclear deterrent, I have some real estate on Mars I want to sell you.
Posted by: Amanda on 4:55pm Thu 4 Oct 07
Well I see the SNPites still live in fantasy land. A nuclear strike on any part of Great Britain will be the end of us all!
An imaginary, man-made border betwixt Carlisle and Berwick isn't going to stop it.
Well I see the SNPites still live in fantasy land. A nuclear strike on any part of Great Britain will be the end of us all!
An imaginary, man-made border betwixt Carlisle and Berwick isn't going to stop it.
Posted by: Mbawsa Ritchie, Dumbarton on 5:00pm Thu 4 Oct 07
Gosh I never thought of it that way, Amanda. Better let these nice people in London continue to look after us then, eh? Cos we're obviously too stupid to do it ourselves.
How's your back Amanda? All that cringing can't be doing it any good.
Gosh I never thought of it that way, Amanda. Better let these nice people in London continue to look after us then, eh? Cos we're obviously too stupid to do it ourselves.
How's your back Amanda? All that cringing can't be doing it any good.
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 10:57am Fri 5 Oct 07
Jayne:
"Independent nuclear deterrent?" That'll be why it is we need the permission of the Pentagon to fire it? That'll be why all the codes for even priming it ready to fire at classified Pentagon state secrets? Trident is no more independent of the United States than the Sandanista Contras in Nicaragua were. Get a life.
Amanda:
I think you'll find it's alot more than "SNP-ites" that want to get rid of Trident. And as for your pathetic little comment removing them from Scotland not making us any safer because a nuclear weapon could be aimed at Carlisle, you'll have to do much better than that. The message is quite clear. We don't want it here. We by ourselves can't scrap Trident, but if the people of Scotland EXPRESSLY reject this obscenity, then the British government will have to find somewhere else to house it. Now, if the English, and then the Welsh and then the Northern Irish also reject it, then the government have a huge problem on their hands. WE will not have this abomination in OUR land. This a moral stance, regardless of what others do. This is not NIMBYISM, as NIMBYISM assumes that there are benefits to be had, but a price to be paid, which everyone would rather someone else paid. There are NO benefits to be had from this, and NO moral justifications. So, if we can take a principled stance and get rid of it, then what others do, is up to them.
Jayne:
"Independent nuclear deterrent?" That'll be why it is we need the permission of the Pentagon to fire it? That'll be why all the codes for even priming it ready to fire at classified Pentagon state secrets? Trident is no more independent of the United States than the Sandanista Contras in Nicaragua were. Get a life.
Amanda:
I think you'll find it's alot more than "SNP-ites" that want to get rid of Trident. And as for your pathetic little comment removing them from Scotland not making us any safer because a nuclear weapon could be aimed at Carlisle, you'll have to do much better than that. The message is quite clear. We don't want it here. We by ourselves can't scrap Trident, but if the people of Scotland EXPRESSLY reject this obscenity, then the British government will have to find somewhere else to house it. Now, if the English, and then the Welsh and then the Northern Irish also reject it, then the government have a huge problem on their hands. WE will not have this abomination in OUR land. This a moral stance, regardless of what others do. This is not NIMBYISM, as NIMBYISM assumes that there are benefits to be had, but a price to be paid, which everyone would rather someone else paid. There are NO benefits to be had from this, and NO moral justifications. So, if we can take a principled stance and get rid of it, then what others do, is up to them.
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 11:27am Fri 5 Oct 07
Methinks Jayne and amanda are one and the same. If either of them believe that England's Trident on Scottish soil is an 'independent' deterrent, then they should stay off the drink.
England's Trident is contolled on firing by dual key and the US has one of them!
Independent? I think not!
What a pair of idiots. Surely this is not why there are so few women in politics?
Methinks Jayne and amanda are one and the same. If either of them believe that England's Trident on Scottish soil is an 'independent' deterrent, then they should stay off the drink.
England's Trident is contolled on firing by dual key and the US has one of them!
Independent? I think not!
What a pair of idiots. Surely this is not why there are so few women in politics?
Posted by: Rob Keith on 11:34am Fri 5 Oct 07
[quote][bold]Amanda[/bold] wrote:
Well I see the SNPites still live in fantasy land. A nuclear strike on any part of Great Britain will be the end of us all!
An imaginary, man-made border betwixt Carlisle and Berwick isn't going to stop it.[/quote] Once again stupidity is the over-riding motor of commentary.
Nuclear destruction spreads beyond borders!
Well done you, there is no getting anything over on you.
Use of these obscene weapons will be a disaster for everyone and the quicker we dissociate ourselves from the silly notion that they are:
1: Usable independently.
2: A deterrent to any future aggression.
3: Value for money.
Who are we pointing them at?
When will we use them?
What do they cost in relation to their worth?
Rid Scotland of this miserable affliction now, if our brothers and sisters south of the border wish to shoulder the burden of them then that is their choice which they can pay for financially and morally.
Regardless of Putins posturing, the cold war is well and truly gone and it is not coming back (Russia's billionaires will see to that ) their is no M.A.D. scenario left, Mr Almajinihad and his ilk will not be put off by our nuclear sabre rattling and he will NEVER have a capability to deliver a nuclear weapon long range.
The USA and Israel will see to that (using common or garden variety bombs.
Trident has outlived its usefulness ( if it ever had any) and needs to disappear from our shores.
Amanda wrote:
Well I see the SNPites still live in fantasy land. A nuclear strike on any part of Great Britain will be the end of us all!
An imaginary, man-made border betwixt Carlisle and Berwick isn't going to stop it.
Once again stupidity is the over-riding motor of commentary.
Nuclear destruction spreads beyond borders!
Well done you, there is no getting anything over on you.
Use of these obscene weapons will be a disaster for everyone and the quicker we dissociate ourselves from the silly notion that they are:
1: Usable independently.
2: A deterrent to any future aggression.
3: Value for money.
Who are we pointing them at?
When will we use them?
What do they cost in relation to their worth?
Rid Scotland of this miserable affliction now, if our brothers and sisters south of the border wish to shoulder the burden of them then that is their choice which they can pay for financially and morally.
Regardless of Putins posturing, the cold war is well and truly gone and it is not coming back (Russia's billionaires will see to that ) their is no M.A.D. scenario left, Mr Almajinihad and his ilk will not be put off by our nuclear sabre rattling and he will NEVER have a capability to deliver a nuclear weapon long range.
The USA and Israel will see to that (using common or garden variety bombs.
Trident has outlived its usefulness ( if it ever had any) and needs to disappear from our shores.
Posted by: G Wright, Glasgow UK on 2:35pm Fri 5 Oct 07
Most of the above posts are blatant lies by twisted socialists, wasting time on the herald site before going down the dole office.
The most hilarious one is that we cant fire trident without americas direct physical intervention.
Perhaps the genuis who claims that you need 2 keys to fire it, (one of which he says is held by the pentagon), can explain how if the need to launch ever arose, how would the key get from the pentagon to inside a nuclear sub, deep under water anywhere in the world?
Teleportation perhaps? Magic? Clown. The missles can be fired solely by the people in the sub. Otherwise the whole point of using a submarine based detterant is entirely negated.
Trident must and will stay. It will only be gone when there is a new, even more fearsome and destructive range of missiles in our submarines!
But for now, Trident Prevails.
Most of the above posts are blatant lies by twisted socialists, wasting time on the herald site before going down the dole office.
The most hilarious one is that we cant fire trident without americas direct physical intervention.
Perhaps the genuis who claims that you need 2 keys to fire it, (one of which he says is held by the pentagon), can explain how if the need to launch ever arose, how would the key get from the pentagon to inside a nuclear sub, deep under water anywhere in the world?
Teleportation perhaps? Magic? Clown. The missles can be fired solely by the people in the sub. Otherwise the whole point of using a submarine based detterant is entirely negated.
Trident must and will stay. It will only be gone when there is a new, even more fearsome and destructive range of missiles in our submarines!
But for now, Trident Prevails.
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 2:58pm Fri 5 Oct 07
G Wright:
If what you are saying is true about the nuclear weapon being able to be fired solely by the people in the sub, then a sub captain who had been at the sauce in the officer's mess at luch-time could start a nuclear war single-handedly over the heads of the government. Given that this is of course utterly ridiculous, so is your assertion. Or are you actually taking the P155 out of the so-called case for this obscentiy? If so you're doing a good job. I fell about laughing when I read your post!
G Wright:
If what you are saying is true about the nuclear weapon being able to be fired solely by the people in the sub, then a sub captain who had been at the sauce in the officer's mess at luch-time could start a nuclear war single-handedly over the heads of the government. Given that this is of course utterly ridiculous, so is your assertion. Or are you actually taking the P155 out of the so-called case for this obscentiy? If so you're doing a good job. I fell about laughing when I read your post!
Posted by: shonagh, Dundee on 4:39pm Fri 5 Oct 07
The "keys" in question are computer codes which are, indeed, held by the Americans and would be transmitted by military telecommunication systems. Teleportation? Numpty.
Now 'scuse me, I'm going down the dole office.
The "keys" in question are computer codes which are, indeed, held by the Americans and would be transmitted by military telecommunication systems. Teleportation? Numpty.
Now 'scuse me, I'm going down the dole office.
Posted by: Alastair, Aberdeen on 4:47pm Fri 5 Oct 07
G Wright:
Just to take up shonagh's point one step further, if everyone posting on here is a layabout living on dole handouts, as you seem to think, then what are you doing posting on here? Go and get a job, scrounger!
G Wright:
Just to take up shonagh's point one step further, if everyone posting on here is a layabout living on dole handouts, as you seem to think, then what are you doing posting on here? Go and get a job, scrounger!
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